And yes, I’m pro-Israeli. Just as I’m pro-Palestinian, pro-Lebanese, etc.
You certainly come across as quite pro-Israeli but not so much pro-Palestinian. Unless perhaps you are using the term pro-Palestinian in the way that the Israeli government does......"of course we care about the Palestinians, of course we care about their suffering, of course we want to end the war, of course they deserve to live in peace, blah blah blah blah" ?
I have no idea if you are pro-Lebanese.
Me on the other I don't sit on the fence whilst there is a genocide going on, I am 100% pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli.
Btw since you are so pro many people are you also pro-Russian too? Do you sit on the fence regarding Russia? I guess you must, no?
Oh here we go again :yawn:
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Again? What do you mean again??
I am fairly sure that I have not made the point about fence sitting before. We all choose when to sit on the fence and when not to. I bet you don't sit on the fence or take a neutral "I don't take sides" when it concerns Russia.
And yet with your pro-Israel pro-Palestine at the same time stance you obviously want to be seen as being neutral when it comes to Israel/Palestine.
I didn't sit on the fence when it came to apartheid in South Africa, despite the fact that I might not have supported everything that the resistance did in the struggles, I opposed the apartheid regime 100%
And the same goes for the current Israeli apartheid regime which is btw incomparably more brutal than the SA regime ever was. If you remain neutral in the case of Israeli apartheid you are supporting it.
As the great anti-apartheid fighter Desmond Tutu said :
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor"
I'll remind that under international law apartheid is classed as a crime against humanity.
Looks like Netanyahu will get his war :
Iran rejects calls to tone down Haniyeh's assassination response: WSJ
The WSJ cited people familiar with the talks as saying that Tehran informed Arab diplomats on Saturday that it is unconcerned if its response to the Israeli assassination leads to the outbreak of war.
The Wall Street Journal pointed out that "Iran has refused to provide detailed warnings that would help mitigate the impact of any strike."i
It is hard to disagree with this :
They also pointed out that "Iran will not yield to pressures and messages of de-escalation because any abandonment of retaliation will open the door to more Israeli aggressions."
Iran doing nothing will absolutely guarantee further Israeli aggression. Doing nothing really isn't an option for them unless they want more of the same. And unlike last time when Iran were happy to simply prove to Israel that they had capability to overwhelm iron dome and hit specific targets this time it's going to have to hurt.
Tel Aviv must be a potential target and if it is hit Netanyahu won't care - extreme zionists don't care about Israeli lives, as long as they aren't blamed.
Netanyahu is desperate for his war as he realises without it he is going to jail along with many members of his cabinet
What countries has Israel struck
Casualties after third Israeli strike on school in a week
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9x88jpw05lo
The strikes were the third time in a week schools in Gaza have been hit by Israeli strikes.
This exposes as a lie the Israeli claim that Hamas use civilians as human shields.
Everyone, including Hamas, knows that it makes zero difference to the IDF if hitting target results in countless innocent deaths. They have proved this over and over again.
Hamas cannot use civilians as human shields because the IDF simply shoots through them. The IDF do not follow the rules of normal armies, Israel is a terrorist state.
Just to add to my previous post, the obvious question is why is the IDF hitting targets that present no military value?
Israel is fighting a psychological war in Gaza,. It needs to break the will of the Palestinian people and leave them totally demoralised.
Firstly so that they lack any motivation to resist, secondly so that they want to flee Gaza, and thirdly so that they turn on Hamas. I have heard Israelis argue that the best way to make people turn on their leaders is to make them hungry - hence the deliberate withholding of food aid.
But the indiscriminate bombing is also part of that, in the same way as Germany suffered saturation bombing in World War II in an attempt to break the will of the German people, or the United States attempted to destroy the will of the Vietnamese and Cambodian people through carpet bombing. Although the tactic obviously never worked - neither in Germany nor in Vietnam not anywhere else.
Another powerful psychological weapon to demoralize the people of Gaza is drive home to them that nowhere, absolutely nowhere, not even the designated "safe areas", are safe. There is nowhere where they can run to and feel safe.
So from the very onset of this genocide the IDF has targeted hospitals, UN schools, and anywhere that was deemed "safe". Nearly a year on and Israel still hasn't defeated Hamas, so the relentless killing of civilians simply continues.
Just to add to my previous post, the obvious question is why is the IDF hitting targets that present no military value?
It is very obvious that they are trying to decimate the Palestinian population as much as they can. i.e. destroy the future generations.
Israel is fighting a psychological war in Gaza,. It needs to break the will of the Palestinian people and leave them totally demoralised.
Even if they are able to break the Palestinian people, the rest of the world will not and the more the Palestinians are decimated, the more the world will raise up. It will take a while for the rest of the world to raise up because Israel is protected by Zionists power all over, but eventually the time will come where the world raise up, and when that happens it will be many times more brutal than the previous wars.
As I said in previous post a while ago, the world is watching. The day will come where Zionists will have no place to hide. The phrase 'no stone unturned' come to mind.
Ernie, thanks for sharing that article. From a neutral perspective though it only confirms that Hamas continues to base weapons systems at civilian sites. This works for Hamas as it fuels its information campaign: even here in the UK you'll see voices online or waving flags in the street focusing on the outcome of the impossible solution this places one of the few democratic nations in the middle east in, not the context and cause.
The sad thing is that prior to the attacks last October, we were getting close to peace. A deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel to improve relations would have been a huge step towards an eventual two state solution, the only viable route to peace. Iran intervened to stop this though Hamas' action last October, both in full knowledge of how this would play out in human lives.
From a neutral perspective though it only confirms that Hamas continues to base weapons systems at civilian sites.
It is hardly a "neutral perspective" if you are accepting IDF claims.
Apart for killing innocent civilians the IDF are most famous for lying.
The United Nations is somewhat more neutral, certainly more neutral than the zionists and their supporters
UN condemns Israeli strike on school in Gaza as claims it hid Hamas fighters disputed
Edit : Btw there is nothing "democratic" about an apartheid state
The sad thing is that prior to the attacks last October, we were getting close to peace. A deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel to improve relations would have been a huge step towards an eventual two state solution, the only viable route to peace.
That is a false peace.
The two states solution is Not a solution and it never was.
There is no turning back now, coz that ship has sailed long time ago when the victors of the WWI and WWII created the state of Israel, a remnant of the empire.
Hence, war is coming and will come again but when, nobody knows as it is brewing.
the world will raise up. It will take a while for the rest of the world to raise up because Israel is protected by Zionists power all over, but eventually the time will come where the world raise up
I admire your optimism but what is actually more likely is that the Palestinians are killed - whether by bombs or starvation or disease - and the survivors flee into exile. Meanwhile Israel occupies their land and the world watches and says “oh dear, how sad”.
eventually the time will come where the world raise up, and when that happens it will be many times more brutal than the previous wars.
The day will come where Zionists will have no place to hide. The phrase ‘no stone unturned’ come to mind.
The two states solution is Not a solution and it never was.
I admire your optimism
****ing hell, guys. I thought you were against genocide?
It's quite worrying. There are a few on here who need to look themselves in a mirror: celebrating the violent failure of the peace process, advocating for war, calling for Jews to be hunted down brutally,.no stone unturned!? This is well beyond anti semitism and utterly warped.
There are a few on here who need to look themselves in a mirror: celebrating the violent failure of the peace process, advocating for war, calling for Jews to be hunted down brutally,.no stone unturned!? This is well beyond anti semitism and utterly warped.
Who are they?, name them please otherwise you're shit stirring.
There are a few on here who need to look themselves in a mirror: celebrating the violent failure of the peace process, advocating for war, calling for Jews to be hunted down brutally
You need to hit the report button, I am totally confident that anyone calling for Jews to be brutally hunted down will be banned.
But I suspect that your comment is just the usual zionist hyperbollocks which hysterically claims that any criticism of Israel and the slaughter it is currently carrying out in Gaza is anti-semitism.
The post was actually
The day will come where Zionists will have no place to hide. The phrase ‘no stone unturned’ come to mind.
And yes while we all know that Zionists != Jews, calling for any group to be hunted down and... (what? Killed? Imprisoned? All Zionists, brutally or otherwise?) is pushing the limits IMO.
And yes, no one here actually said anything anti-semitic but surely you can see how comments like that are pushing it and could be taken badly by anyone, at least at first glance, without it needing to be hysterical zionist hyperbollocks.
Both sides step back and calm down a bit perhaps so the thread can stay open?
And yes while we all know that Zionists != Jews, calling for any group to be hunted down and… (what? Killed? Imprisoned? All Zionists, brutally or otherwise?) is pushing the limits IMO.
No zionist does not equal Jew at all, and to say so is clearly racist. Some of the most outstanding anti zionists are Jewish. And some of the most committed zionists are not Jewish at all.
Your attempt to link the two and claim that they are both the same is exactly the same ploy as used by Netanyahu.
Yes of course zionists such as Netanyahu who are guilty of crimes should be hunted down, in the same way as Nazis guilty of crimes were hunted down, but it had **** all to do with anti German racism ffs
I think you need to review the meaning of the != symbol Ernie...
And yes, no one here actually said anything anti-semitic but surely you can see how comments like that are pushing it and could be taken badly by anyone
The term you're looking for is dog whistle.
Here is a short clip by an outstanding anti zionist Jew
Ilan Pappe is also Israeli
You have completely misunderstood me. "!=" means "does not equal".
Probably my fault for using stupid programmer shorthand and should have been clearer, sorry!.
With that in mind, read the whole post again 😉
I think you need to review the meaning of the != symbol Ernie…
Not at all, the inference is crystal clear. It's an established zionist tactic. The Israeli use it all the time. And it is as racist as accusing a Jew who doesn't support apartheid of being a "self-hating Jew"
I don't quite see what you're getting at.
Equating Zionists and Jews is racist, therefore anyone who, as a Jew, gets nervous at people saying "hunt down all the Zionists, all over the world!!!" is a racist?
I don't know if it was intended as a dog whistle or not. Anyway, my point was simply "let's not call for all Zionists to get hunted down, shall we?" with a side point of "be careful with your comments".
Not all Zionists are Jews, I think that is what Ernie was saying, some of the most outlandish and hateful Zionists are evangelical Christians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism
There's no sane reading of != that says "well they wrote the shorthand for 'not equal to' so it's crystal clear they mean 'is definitely equal to' "
This is why I can only stomach this thread once every few weeks. You're off your rockers, some of you
Zionism Does Not equate to all Jewish people.
Bani or Banu Israel are the people who lived in that region including Arab Jews and Arab Christians.
The current state of Israel is created from colonial time after WWI & WWII and not of Bani Israel.
There are many Persian (Iran) Jews current residing in Iran and they all live peacefully.
Even during Ottoman time the Jewish people were protected or given safe haven.
Then things change after WWI and WWII with colonial ambitions.
The post was actually
So, nothing about "brutally hunted down". Thanks for clarifying.
I don’t quite see what you’re getting at.
Equating Zionists and Jews is racist
Yup, absolutely. The assumption that someone is a zionist because they happen to be Jewish, or assuming that all zionists are Jewish, is racist.
How else would you describe it?
.
Edit: And it is perfectly fair to describe the totally false claim that several people on this thread have called for Jews to be brutally hunted down as hyperbollocks.
How would you describe it.........a straightforward blatant lie?
Zionist and Jew are different terms, but are very much being used as a dog whistle here.
Nah, that's just a false allegation made by you, it's what zionists do - they simply lie about everything.
Watch this clip by a famous Jewish celebrity 3 mins 10 secs in :
Here is a short clip by an outstanding anti zionist Jew
For someone who said earlier that they don't think someone being Jewish "is in any way relevant", you certainly seem to jump on Jewish opinions when you find something to agree with.
But Ilan Pappe is a pretty fringe voice in that respect (even Finkelstein is a two-statist) and wanting an end to Israel is an extreme position to hold. How many Jews at the demo last Saturday want to see that, do you think? What about our new attorney general? I'd say Hermer's position is much closer to mine than yours.
I think the reason you struggle to understand other people’s views on this topic is that you don’t realise how extreme your own are. Most people want to see peace for Israel and Palestine, not no more Israel at all.
Most people want to see peace for Israel and Palestine
Apart from most Israeli voters, obvs.
[Mod] A polite request to think carefully before you post. The tone of some is offensive as well as antagonistic. We look forward to your co-operation and a reminder to report any post that you consider has breached Forum Rules. Thank you.
For someone who said earlier that they don’t think someone being Jewish “is in any way relevant”, you certainly seem to jump on Jewish opinions when you find something to agree with.
No i don't think whether someone is Jewish is in anyway relevant to whether they are zionists or not, unlike obviously some people.
My clip of Alexi Sayle, and the previous one of Ilan Pappe, simply makes that point. I have no idea why you have a problem with me posting clips of Jews who are opposed to zionism apart from the rather obvious reason that you would prefer people didn't see them.
I have already stated that the most eloquent and persuasive critics of zionism are Jews, especially Israeli Jews. IMO this is firstly due to a deeply passionate commitment that zionists should not be allowed to claim that they are speaking on their behalf, and secondly because of a very profound and often fairly unique understanding of the zionist mindset.
I consider the speech made Gerald Kaufman made from the floor of the House of Commons denouncing zionist crimes probably the greatest I have heard from the HoC. Have you heard it? It's brilliant, I'll post it if you haven't.
And wait until you hear what Miko Peled, ex IDF Special Forces and son of an Israeli general, has to say about Zionism, I can post clips from him too.
As I said recently on this thread, this isn't Jews against Palestinians, it is zionists against Palestinians
On the subject of Gaza - I would certainly hope that the perpetrators of these crimes would be hunted down one day.
Violence, extreme hunger, humiliation and other abuse of Palestinian prisoners has been normalised across Israel’s jail system, according to Guardian interviews with released prisoners, with mistreatment now so systemic that rights group B’Tselem says it must be considered a policy of “institutionalised abuse”.
Former detainees described abuse ranging from severe beatings and sexual violence to starvation rations, refusal of medical care, and deprivation of basic needs including water, daylight, electricity and sanitation, including soap and sanitary pads for women.
In a months-long investigation, B’Tselem interviewed 55 former prisoners housed in 16 Israeli prison service jails and detention centres run by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), mapping the scale and nature of abuse. The highly respected Jerusalem-based group concluded that Israel’s prisons should now be labelled “torture camps”.
It’s just one poster.
I take that back. I was not expecting chewkw’s cut and paste hate filled conspiracy theory stuff to result in anyone backing him up.
Don’t bite, ignore.
This is still good advice though, which I think I’d better try and follow myself from here on.
hate filled conspiracy theory
Get a grip, there is nothing "hate filled" about chewkw's comment. As a non-native English speaker he sometimes uses terminology in a more unusual way but there is nothing vaguely 'hate filled' about it.
There is no way that STW would allow "hate filled" posts, as well you know.
And he is not suggesting any "conspiracy" at all, I have no idea what conspiracy theory you think he has suggested.
You are obviously unhappy with the opinions expressed by some on this thread and this presumably is what bothers you.
Some really good news care of the new Labour government:
Arms export licences to Israel suspended by UK government
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/arms-export-licences-to-israel-suspended-by-uk-government-h17rhdf2
The British government has already begun to suspend arms export licences to Israel while ministers carry out a policy review, evidence seen by the JC confirms.
In December, then Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch decided not to halt export licences to Israel on the grounds that there was not at present a clear risk that items exported to the IDF “might be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of international humanitarian law”.
That is good news. Need to see the detail though, very little goes direct to Israel from the UK, what about our part in the supply chains of the big suppliers, the USA and Germany?
I have no idea why you have a problem with me posting clips of Jews who are opposed to zionism apart from the rather obvious reason that you would prefer people didn’t see them.
It's really OK with me if you post opinions on the internet.
My point was that your strong anti-Israel position is leading you to obsessively tokenise Jewish voices, and in recent pages to also make false claims about Jewish ethnicity in Israel, and to deny or excuse Jewish maltreatment and persecution in the Arab and Muslim world. If you don’t think this is about Jews, then you could stop making it about Jews.
I hadn't heard of Peled, but he seems to be a one-state idealist, and good for him for believing in the possibility of a secular, democratic state with equal right for all (naive though that position is). But I don't think that's your aim, as what I see is that you'll bend any truth to suit a purely anti-Israel position.
As for Kaufman, I'd say he also not on your side. He wanted a peaceful secure Israel and a two-state solution, and criticised the actions of the Israeli leadership for risking the Jewish homeland (a view I share).
As I said recently on this thread, this isn’t Jews against Palestinians, it is zionists against Palestinians
It’s neither, unless you think all zionists want no Palestinian state, and all Palestinians want no Israel.
leading you to obsessively tokenise Jewish voices, and in recent pages to also make false claims about Jewish ethnicity in Israel
How insulting to Jews commited to justice for Palestinians, they are most certainly not "token Jews".
And I made no false claims about Jewish ethnicity in Israel. I provided a link to an Israeli newspaper which quoted an Israeli health ministry medical expert who explained that the high rates of skin cancers in Israel were caused by fair skinned Europeans living in a desert climate. Argue the toss with them not me.
Although it is of course perfectly logical, as I explained earlier you do not have to have a drop of Semite blood in you to kick a Palestinian off their land and call yourself an Israeli citizen. If one of your partner's grandparents claimed to be Jewish you can qualify, you don't even need to claim to be Jewish yourself.
And yes, I think Netanyahu's claims about ancestors living in Palestine 3 thousand years ago as a justification for the horrors committed against Palestinians (whose ancestors actually lived in Palestine 3 thousand years ago) is nonsense, any reasonable person would.
unless you think all zionists want no Palestinian state
All zionists want to drive Palestinians out of their homes and lands, that's how Israel was created
As for Kaufman, I’d say he also not on your side.
Let Kaufman speak for himself:
"Nah, that’s just a false allegation made by you, it’s what zionists do – they simply lie about everything."
Awful comment.
Whether you like it or not, most Jews are Zionists.
"All zionists want to drive Palestinians out of their homes and lands, that’s how Israel was created"
I'm sure you know that Israel consists of 20% Arab plus other minorities such as the Druze - who have full democratic rights, educational, civil and any other rights - and in fact Israeli Arabs are over represented in professions such as being pharmacists , doctors & nursing. Hardly pushing them out. Israel also has no territorial ambitions in Gaza. Even after the 67 war, Israel wanted Egypt to resume control over Gaza but Egypt refused.
